Yes we know it may sound stupid to you but then someone out there is dying to ask the same thing and is afraid to I have found that no matter how friendly you are with your competitors they are not willing to help you out if you are stuck on something. I am on very good terms and a friend of 3 of our competitors but a few years ago I was asked to make a wreath for a band conductor and said yes it was to look like a sheet of music but hadn't a clue what I was going to do thought about it came up with an idea and rang one then second and then third and got no response from any of them I then rang another friend whose shop was 100 miles away and talked it through with her and with her input was able to add to the original idea but had this forum been available then I know someone would have helped me through anyway got it done and customer was very happy only mistake I never took a photo